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: Christian fake testimonies  ( 4032 )
TheRyanOne
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« : December 25, 2009, 09:26:49 AM »

I came to this realisation a while back when I was trying to wonder what on Earth Christians meant with their hocus pocus bible language. Leave them in a secluded village by themselves for long enough and they'll start speaking Elizabethan English again.

Basically, the number of Christian testimonies is quite overwhelming. And you would expect a testimony to be some account of unexplainable divinity. Well, unexplainable unless you believe in their God. Otherwise, what would be the point in building up a nice gallery of them. My hypothesis is that most of these are simply by mislead individuals who think that they are oh-so-special and that God has chosen them, because they have been snared into believing.

This is what I noticed: many Christians will pronounce,

"And God's Holy Spirit entered my life"

And they leave it at that before moving on.

These 'Christians' are LIARS!

If the Holy Spirit truly had influence over your life, would you not actually DESCRIBE what was happening? I ask you to empathise; why would someone write this way? Clearly they have picked up on a few things (most of which they have probably conditioned themselves to feel through prayer) which other believers have associated with the Holy Spirit, so rather than describe what actually happened (they know the effects are so meager they would be embarassing to admit), they use this as the cover story.

It sounds so much grander to say, "The Holy Spirit entered my life" than "I started wanting to help people". And, ironically, if you actually ask most Christians who say they are Spirit inspired that's all they'll really say it is. But of course, it's the Spirit 'plantng' thoughts into their head, because after all they are far too sinful to think of it for themselves!

The other one is 'Holy Spirit conviction'. Now, I have A LOT of personal experience with this. And I can testify that it is nothing more than mind control. I experienced it without even being a believer. My best bet is that I was so scared of hell, in the back of my mind, that my unconscious would try to get me to avoid what the stereotypical Christian would see as sinful so that I would not go there. I would get powerful gut feelings come out of nowhere, like "I REALLY shouldn't have done that!" but once I began to trace them, it became apparent that it was the evangelical virus infecting my mind, and not the 'Holy Spirit'.

Although Christian testimonies seem miraculous today, I think psychology will expose most of them for what they really are.

Oh, and by the way, I love people so I suppose I must have the Spirit? Well John says I do! Well, he also says I don't, because I seek to enjoy my life. He was a very contradictory man. And I have a lot of godliness for an atheist!

Nyte
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« #1 : December 26, 2009, 02:25:08 AM »

I couldn't agree with you more.  I've always felt very uncomfortable around churches and being made to go to one, it always feels like some sort of a cult to me, probably because it is in a way.  And they think I'M the weird one.  Although I have met some really cool Christians who were laid back, into things most of their peers would say were satanic and they thought my beliefs were neat, rather than saying I was being blasphemous. 

I dun need no stinkin signature. (In other words, I'm too lazy to come up with anything else to put here for the time being.)
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« #2 : December 27, 2009, 01:39:23 AM »

As a first note, the "Elizabethan English" is from the King James version which, while the most beautiful translation, is one of the least accurate translations. However, it's absolutely beautiful to listen to and as such is usually the most commonly recited.

I don't don't talk about my particular beliefs here, nor do I spend a lot of time talking about them in general. I don't feel "chosen by God" and I don't think I'm all that special and I certainly don't feel misled. I have spent many years and much study on my faith from the point of view of not believing it. I left Christianity in high school, became Wiccan, then Druidic, then Pagan, then Agnostic and finally in college I started studying the Bible as part of a history course (since whether you like it or not, Christianity has shaped history) and started thinking about it again and learning more about the more accurate translations away from a religious environment and it led me back to Christianity again. I don't feel like talking about it further.

I don't feel like describing God's influence in my life to someone like you. I don't really want to because you will question the hell out of it, demean it - and me - in the process and won't believe it. So why should I talk to you about it? What would the purpose accomplish? I would walk away insulted and upset and your point would be "reinforced" and you'd walk away feeling as though I was an idiot. No one would win that and no communication would happen. Does that make me a liar?

God didn't make me want to help people. God didn't make me be a good person. God didn't make me do anything, in fact. I chose to do these things on my own. My interactions with God aren't him "inspiring me" to do anything. Hell, he hasn't made me do anything at all. I have a lot of conviction that God is there, that he is real, and that's that. The guilt I feel when I act badly is my own, not Gods. My own feelings are mine, God doesn't make me feel any particular way.

As far as "what they really are" is that they're a group of people whose beliefs have changed their lives, in some cases for the better. Everyone needs to believe in something, whether it's religious, philosophical, nihilist, or whatever you want to say. But everyone needs to believe in something. It is what gives a life meaning. Whether you believe only in the unlimited human potential, or whether you believe that Cthulu is going to show up. I don't much care. But believing in something is by no means a bad thing.

I don't believe in God because of "miracles" or whatever. And my belief is none of your damn business so I won't explain why and how and the details of it for you to pull apart to rationalize.

Some Christians are jerks. Some are poor examples of Christianity. Some Christians are idiots.

And here am I, a very serious Christian, running a metaphysics site, believing in Tarot and astrology and projection and spirits and entities. I believe fully in all of that, I don't see anywhere in the Bible it says it's Satanic or evil and honestly I don't much care if the Bible says it is. The Bible was a book written by men. A damn good book, but a book written by men about 1,900 years ago based on principals and thoughts of the time. All of it isn't applicable to modern life. All of it isn't necessarily right.

But I'm Christian. And I am unafraid of that fact.

On an Admin note: it's not acceptable to bash any religion. Question it, sure, debate it, fine, but don't outright bash it.
« : December 27, 2009, 02:59:11 AM The Sentinel »

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-- Heinlein's Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.
-- Occam's Razor

"People tell me to forget the war, telling me it is over. Their advice is sound and well-intentioned but impossible to follow. Simply because my mind is not a faucet that I can turn on and off and at will. I am working on it." -- Eddie H. Livingston
Nyte
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« #3 : December 27, 2009, 02:44:45 AM »

Oh I have no problem with Christians, I just don't agree with everything some of the hardcore Christians do.  Like I said, I have many good friends who are hardcore Christians...but they accept me for who I am so I do the same.  I'm just not Christian myself, and feel very uncomfortable around churches.

I dun need no stinkin signature. (In other words, I'm too lazy to come up with anything else to put here for the time being.)
The Sentinel
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« #4 : December 27, 2009, 02:59:36 AM »

That wasn't so much directed towards you, Nyte, as it was to the topic starter. You weren't bashing anyone.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-- Heinlein's Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.
-- Occam's Razor

"People tell me to forget the war, telling me it is over. Their advice is sound and well-intentioned but impossible to follow. Simply because my mind is not a faucet that I can turn on and off and at will. I am working on it." -- Eddie H. Livingston
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« #5 : December 27, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »


The Sentinel
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« #6 : December 28, 2009, 01:54:32 AM »

Lol, nice.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-- Heinlein's Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.
-- Occam's Razor

"People tell me to forget the war, telling me it is over. Their advice is sound and well-intentioned but impossible to follow. Simply because my mind is not a faucet that I can turn on and off and at will. I am working on it." -- Eddie H. Livingston
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« #7 : December 28, 2009, 06:47:49 AM »

This strange neo-Atheism pride concerns me somewhat, and seems to be spreading.
As for the original topic, Christian tendencies are at least bound in tradition - and aren't as bad as Wicca and all that New Age stuff.

Anyway, to play Devil's Advocate - I believe that there are Spiritual Forces, that is, stems and tides of movements of a non-corporeal matter, influencing every decision in my life.

Therefore, I'd like to discuss with the Topic Starter, (As, though I'm not a Christian, I believe I fit the bill of this topic) why it is I am incorrect - and how exactly my beliefs can be considered a matter of psychology anymore so than theirs, or anybody else's?

So, fire away, TheRyanOne.
I believe this'll be more helpful than blanket attacks on a billion members of the planet.

Every man is a creative cause of what happens, a Primum Mobile with an original movement.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Errosia
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« #8 : December 28, 2009, 07:39:57 AM »

you have some serious concerns about Christanity...maybe you should just start asking questions instead of making statements.
TheRyanOne
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« #9 : December 28, 2009, 04:24:43 PM »

Well, this really was just about the Christian attitude and testimonies. You are all free to believe that spiritual forces influence your life and you might be right, just accept that if that is the case then they are pretty much completely indistinguishable from your subconscious mind. Conveniently.

@ The Sentinel : I guess you got that impression by my thread starter. Granted, I was very angry at it. I might get angry because I believe that lacking skepticism is evil, but in reality I have no right to unless the believer is pushing themselves on others.

I just think that you would expect testimonies to be the one place where Christians actually describe what it is like to feel God, but they never fucking do. It's almost as if God doesn't want us to believe in him. And I can understand that.

I am an atheist because I see the evidence around me, and I see that there is NO WAY it was created by a higher power that loved me. Perhaps I could believe in God, as long as it was one whose sole purpose was to torture us and vicariously laugh at our failures, but then our sole purpose would be to kill him.

Back on topic. I just want to touch on people who claim to have been 'swept away' by the Holy Spirit. This might offend some people who have been, so watch out.

I want to remind you that this is exactly how a child predator would gain trust with children. Rather than giving them a meaningful set of morals or anything that's actually important to them, they sweep them off their feet by bombarding them with candy and nice things. This is just what the Christian God does to his followers. Not all, but those he has converted personally. And there are many who claim this. Convincing someone of your authority as a God by giving them a massive sense of peace and tranquility is a deception, a violation of that person's freedom to choose. That God is no different than the predator who gives a small boy a lolly pop before taking him home for unlubricated sodomy. Which, judging by what usually happens to the mind of the born again believer, is actually quite accurate in metaphor.

If God wants us to know he exists he can come down and fucking tell us face to face. When Christians describe 'The Holy Spirit' it is so much more probable and obvious that it could actually just be a powerful entity trying to brainwash you. Good or bad, it has no excuse.

I have a friend who says exactly the same thing. She was extremely depressed and suicidal, and then she claimed she had an epiphany and 'knew everything' for a few seconds. Now she is a Swedenborgian Christian.

Isn't it funny how they always get you when you are most vulnerable?  ;)
The Sentinel
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« #10 : December 28, 2009, 04:36:13 PM »

I don't see how it's a bad thing that religion has helped people out of their dark places in their head, even if you don't believe it's real.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-- Heinlein's Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.
-- Occam's Razor

"People tell me to forget the war, telling me it is over. Their advice is sound and well-intentioned but impossible to follow. Simply because my mind is not a faucet that I can turn on and off and at will. I am working on it." -- Eddie H. Livingston
TheRyanOne
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« #11 : December 28, 2009, 05:27:48 PM »

I don't see how it's a bad thing that religion has helped people out of their dark places in their head, even if you don't believe it's real.

Religion really has nothing to do with this, but I assume you mean belief or something.

It is not a bad thing to come out of a bad place in your head, but my point is that whatever force is causing this change is very likely to be deceptive.
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« #12 : December 28, 2009, 06:09:10 PM »

Well, this really was just about the Christian attitude and testimonies.
As opposed to what other religion?

Quote
You are all free to believe that spiritual forces influence your life and you might be right, just accept that if that is the case then they are pretty much completely indistinguishable from your subconscious mind. Conveniently.
Why this insistence on objectifying God?  Not everyone does this, and still consider themselves christian.


Quote
I just think that you would expect testimonies to be the one place where Christians actually describe what it is like to feel God, but they never fucking do.
This is incorrect.  The christian mystics such as St. Theresa did just this, and wrote about it.  There are others but for the moment she's the only one I can think of.

Quote
It's almost as if God doesn't want us to believe in him. And I can understand that.
No, it's as if religious hierarchies want to control how people think of God, so they can control them.  A completely different deal.

Quote
I am an atheist because I see the evidence around me, and I see that there is NO WAY it was created by a higher power that loved me. Perhaps I could believe in God, as long as it was one whose sole purpose was to torture us and vicariously laugh at our failures, but then our sole purpose would be to kill him.
Once again, you are separating and objectifying God, in a way that only some orthodox and traditional christians do- but not all christians separate themselves from God, some see themselves as God expressing as themselves.  And these views change this judgement of the world, because if it is cruel or tricky it's because we have helped make it that way.  It's easy to hand over the blame and responsibility to an objectified God, but a lot of what happens here is how we arranged it.


Quote
Back on topic. I just want to touch on people who claim to have been 'swept away' by the Holy Spirit. This might offend some people who have been, so watch out.
Well, I don't claim such a thing, but in a previous part of the post you complain that not many christians report experiencing God, yet you want to attack who do the exact same thing.  So which is it?  Do they talk about it and be attacked, or do they just keep it to themselves?

Quote
Convincing someone of your authority as a God by giving them a massive sense of peace and tranquility is a deception, a violation of that person's freedom to choose. That God is no different than the predator who gives a small boy a lolly pop before taking him home for unlubricated sodomy. Which, judging by what usually happens to the mind of the born again believer, is actually quite accurate in metaphor.
  But you fail to see (or refuse to) that it is people who make such claims, not 'a God'.  It's people who victimize others in the name of God.

Quote
If God wants us to know he exists he can come down and fucking tell us face to face.
Once again, you are objectifying God.  Look in the mirror, say "I exist", and then unleash all the venom you are holding in, because you are talking to God, who is expressing as you.

Quote
When Christians describe 'The Holy Spirit' it is so much more probable and obvious that it could actually just be a powerful entity trying to brainwash you. Good or bad, it has no excuse.
Or they could just be 'experiencing God', something you just said christians don't say or do.

Quote
I have a friend who says exactly the same thing. She was extremely depressed and suicidal, and then she claimed she had an epiphany and 'knew everything' for a few seconds. Now she is a Swedenborgian Christian.

Isn't it funny how they always get you when you are most vulnerable?  ;)
  It sounds like she's not so vulnerable now.

Errosia
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« #13 : December 29, 2009, 08:33:02 AM »

Bravo, C...its just like that, Girl!

Ryan...what on earth has happened to you?
TheRyanOne
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« #14 : December 29, 2009, 08:43:50 AM »

I don't use the English language as carefully as people would want me to.

Excuse me if this is just useless paranoia, over something so trivial it really doesn't make any difference (except to people's whole lives), but what I am saying is that it is impossible to tell the difference between being 'swept away by the holy spirit' and some bad entity coaxing you into thinking it was the holy spirit. Does anyone understand that?

And of course their life would get better, that's the whole point!

On a secondary note: if we are God expressing himself intimately through creation, then this is pantheism. It's a position I've held for a very long time. But how would a pantheistic 'God', if that's even the right word, who isn't even personal, send his holy spirit on somebody in particular? A pantheistic 'God' is NOT a 'particular' God! It cannot 'choose' anyone to convert because it is not a personal being.

People who feel the Holy Spirit usually go away believing in a personal God, so if it really is 'the spirit of truth', then why doesn't it tell them that it's not!

I wish I had not even started this thread. It's very embarassing because I never had a point to make, I was just peed off. Originally, what I was getting at was actually Christians lying about feeling the spirit, not about actually feeling it.







Basically guys, in simple terms. I could not be converted by the Holy Spirit because I would always be suspicious that it's not really the Holy Spirit. And to anyone who says, "Oh you'll just know, you'll JUST KNOW!"

THAT'S MIND CONTROL!

That's the TEXT BOOK definition of mind control! If something cannot give you a good reason to believe in it, it will overwhelm you with a great sense of trust. This is clearly a VIOLATION of free will so how could it possibly come from the Christian God?

Oh wait... just make that 'God' in general otherwise with the 'Christian' in front of it I guess I destroy the whole argument!
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